First Look - 07 June 2008

French Ship "Tourville (F 610) to Visit Severomorsk

The French Navy Ship "Tourville" will begin a port visit to the main Northern Fleet base on 11 June. It is planned that the ship will moor at 1100. The port call will continue through 16 June.

Note: I know from personal experience that Severomorsk/Murmansk is not exactly Pattaya Beach. Its quite possible that the French sailors on liberty will run out of things to do by 1110 and then all you will be left with is a bunch of guys in striped t-shirts with little puff balls on their flat hats wandering aimlessly around Severomorsk. The best part of a port call in Severomorsk: the trip down the spectacular Kola Fjord out. The trip in is not as good, 'cause when you're standing there at parade rest manning the rails and snot is dripping down your nose and freezing to your upper lip in July, you know you're pretty miserable.


Bold Monarch-2008 Wraps Up



The participants of Bold Monarch-2008 pull into Arendal, Norway for the final ceremony. The Georgiy Titov pulls into a fjord almost as big as she is, the Danish Police dress up like it's Charles Dickens' Day, there is the dreaded "gift exchange" (any START inspectors in the audience know what I'm talking about), American officers think that TV Zvezda streaming on the Internet on the Dutch Ship "Rotterdam" is the greatest thing since sliced bread and the Norwegians and the Russians plan on a bi-lateral submarine exercise in the Barents for next year.

Should have thought about that last thing ten years ago.

Port Arthur Today

A Russian blogger goes to Port Arthur and comes back with some pictures of the historic battlefield:



From Perepelinna Heights: The view of Electric Bluff and the Western Basin behind it.



The Western Basin.



The Western Basin after the Seige of Port Arthur. (Photo: Wikipedia)



This is why foreigners aren't allowed on top of Perepelinna, although its clearly visible from space.

Cold War Stories: Guardfish Vs. K-184, Part V

(Photo: USS Ticonderoga (CVS 14)).

Part I
Part II
Part III
Part IV

The deployment turns into the "Seinfeld" of deployments - a patrol about nothing. K-184 aimlessly punches holes in the ocean very slowly as Guardfish follows, at least until K-184 makes up for the deafness of her sonar shack...

28 May. We took station in the Philippines Sea. Two messages were received in which there was an order to take up a new area in the form of a circle with a radius of 50 miles; also it was reported that it was leaked to the American press that Soviet submarines were discovered in the South China Sea. Admiral N.I.Smirnov, the Commander of the Pacific Ocean Fleet calls upon us to maintain our covert posture and curses K-57 for reporting the fact that she took station. Covertness was lost by Headquarters during our workups for deployment: the transit route was available to anyone who wasn’t lazy, all the boats set out on the same route, they ordered us to report our position by radio, there wasn’t any sort of cover story created to cover our departure from base. During our PD to receive the broadcast we detected a radar operating in single sweep mode bearing 170 relative. The horizon was clear. We weren’t able to determine the pulse repetition frequency (PRF) or the pulse duration since the radar operated only three seconds. Its possible that it’s a BPS-9 carried by a Permit class SSN.

David Minton writes: After passing through the Bashi Straits, the Echo II established a new patrol zone in the Philippines Sea south of Okinawa. It was the worst acoustic conditions that you could imagine. At night, natural ambient noise and frequent rains deafened sonar. It became ever more difficult to maintain contact so Guardfish had to maintain trail of the Echo II at an even closer distance. Shore worked out a detailed procedure for handing off the Echo II to another US boat. We got that message on the broadcast.

29 May. We took position in the new water, speed 6 knots, with no explicit mission. I made the decision to begin a search for American and Japanese surface ships. During the broadcast, we detected a radar operating in single sweep mode bearing 175 relative. The horizon was clear. We weren’t able to determine the pulse repetition frequency (PRF) or the pulse duration since the radar operated only five seconds. Its possible that it’s a BPS-9 carried by a Permit class SSN.

30 May. During the broadcast, we detected a radar operating in single sweep mode bearing 175 relative. The horizon was clear. I heard out a suggestion from the XO and Combat Systems Officer on how to flush out the foreign submarine and break off contact.

31 May. We got a message on the broadcast ordering us to yet another area and also received word that supposedly the US found out about the locations of all of our boats in the South China Sea. Other areas were assigned to K-7, K-45 and K-57. The transit lane to these areas border some reefs and bars. The Pac Fleet Command reminded us about navigational safety. The ASW carrier “Ticonderoga” is approaching the Philippines Sea. President Nixon flew to Iran and his Secretary of Defense gave the order to shut down the “Safeguard” anti-ballistic missile system.

01 June. During the broadcast, we detected a radar operating in single sweep mode bearing 175 relative. The horizon was clear. We got the intel summary: “The ASW carrier “Ticonderoga” arrived in port Guam for refueling. There are three CVAs in the Gulf of Tonkin and one CVA to the east of Saigon.”

02 June. We carried out a special maneuver to attempt to flush out the foreign submarine that was possibly following us. We didn’t find anything. That day we came to PD for the broadcast and we observed a 10,000 ton displacement transport bearing 280 true, range 40 cables. Sonar didn’t detect anything before coming to PD because the acoustics were so bad.

03 June. We read in the intel summary: “The ASW carrier “Ticonderoga” is transiting to the Philippines.” K-45 was ordered to transit the Bashi Straits to occupy new water, once again past the bars and reefs. And again came the warnings on navigation from Fleet Headquarters. Soon we’ll have spent a whole month at sea, splitting atoms for no apparent reason, although they could have given us the task of searching for and following a carrier. For a month we cruised at 6 knots in the same 50 mile radius circle, hearing and seeing nothing.

04 June. Intel summary: “The ASW carrier “Ticonderoga” is entering the Luzon Strait.

05 June. Intel summary: “The ASW carrier “Ticonderoga” has arrived in port, Subic Bay.” I called the department heads together to discuss the patrol report, warning that I didn’t want any whitewashes and to write what happened in actuality.

06 June. From 29 May to 06 June during our time at periscope depth receiving the broadcast, we were making brief detections of a radar operating astern of us, following us in our baffles at low speed, executing special maneuvers, although we couldn’t detect anything. At 1200, we came to PD and caught the broadcast. I made a low power periscope sweep and followed it up with a high power examination of the horizon, and there it was in our port quarter – I see a submarine periscope at a range of 5 or 6 cables about 2 meters out of the water. I gave the scope to the XO, K3R L.V.Shaipov and he confirmed that he saw a periscope. When I went to look again, it was gone. Sonar didn’t detect anything. I immediately sent a message to shore informing them of the detection of an American submarine. We detected a radar in single sweep mode operating astern of us and assumed it was a BPS-9 belonging to a Permit class SSN. We dove to 80 meters, turned about to search our baffles, speed four knots. After 30 minutes, we broke off from the American boat, changing speed and course, using active acoustic countermeasures.


David Minton writes: “Shore has worked out detailed procedures for turning over trail of the Echo II SSGN to another American boat. We got the message on the broadcast. As Guardfish was at periscope depth, we got an urgent message that the Echo II had suddenly come to PD and visually detected Guardfish. Maneuvers subsequent to this were aggressive and at high speed. To continue the trail of an alerted foe wasn’t possible and we lost contact with the Echo II.

To be continued...

First Look - 05 June 2008

Baltic Fleet Sailors Will Participate in Baltops-2008

A Baltic Fleet detachment of ships consisting of the Escort Ship “Neustrashimyy” and the Large Landing Ship “Kaliningrad” departed the main naval base at Baltiysk. The commodore is Kapitan 1st Rank Oleg Gurinov. The Baltic Fleet sailors will represent the Russian Navy during the annual international maritime exercise “Baltops-2008”.

Representatives of the Naval Attache Association Visited the Northern Fleet Missile Cruiser “Marshal Ustinov”.



(Photo: Macsnavylinks)

Cool Pic of the Day

Dive Tender VM-154 with the catamaran-hull salvage lifting ship "Kommuna" in the background. The "Kommuna" was laid down for the Imperial Russian Navy in 1913.

(Photo: Sevastopol.ru)

Russians to Base Major Forces in Syria?

The Russian Mediterranean Fleet

Sevastopol’ may be traded for the Syrian port of Tartus

The Commander in Chief of the Russian Navy, Vladimir Vysotskiy is planning to increase the number of combat ships in Sevastopol’. Also, without waiting for a political decision about the fate of the Black Sea Fleet (BSF), he is already thinking about re-basing the BSF in the Mediterranean basin after 2017. Military experts consider the idea of rebasing the fleet to be rational, but consider the announcement to increase the number of vessels to be nothing more than populism. Since Russia doesn’t have any ships to spare the only way to increase the numbers in the BSF would be to take ships from other fleets.

After the publication of Mayor Yuri Luzhkov’s doubts about Ukraine’s claim to Crimea, the dispute over basing the BSF in Sevastopol’ has broken out with new force. The President of Ukraine, Victor Yushenko quickly signed an order to end the fleet’s lease in 2017 and Russian officials have for the first time quietly raised the idea of paying more rent. At the end of the week the CinC Russian Navy Vladimir Vysotskiy announced that Russia would raise the number of ships in the BSF to one hundred. This number is predicated on a Russian-Ukrainian basing agreement since there are 35 ships in the BSF now. True, the CinC hasn’t said how this increase would come about. Experts think the CinC’s loud announcements are baseless. The President of the Academy of Geopolitical Problems Leonid Ivashov considers that Russia wont be able to put 100 ships into the Black Sea for another 20 years at the earliest, “since we simply don’t have them. But, by this time, we may already have lost the main base in Sevastopol’. Therefore similar pronouncements must be considered adventurism.” Aleksandr Khramchikhin, the chief of the information-analytical department of the Institute of Political and Military Analysis agrees that to do this obviously involves a transfer of ships from the Baltic and Northern Fleets. “But why we would do this is not completely clear," says the expert.

So with regards to possible new addresses for a renovated BSF, among the most probable appears to be the Mediterranean basin. “A Russian Naval Base can be built there,” Vladimir Vysotskiy announced, noting that “Russia has strategic interests in the world ocean and we will pursue them." Experts welcome the stationing of ships in the Mediterranean Sea. “But today we hardly have a toehold in that basin,” Leonid Ivashov says. “Really only the Syrian port of Tartus, where we can agree with the Syrians to use it. But it’s not as simple as to just pick up and move there since we only have a tender based there now. Redeploying to the Mediterranean partly makes sense, but even then there has to be some sort of presence in the Black Sea since we have to guard our own shores. Therefore light forces will probably stay in Novorossiysk and the heavier forces, which admittedly aren’t very numerous, will transfer to Tartus, where a Russian base will be constructed,” Aleksandr Khramchikhin says.

Since Soviet times there has been a navy repair base in the Syrian port of Tartus. Right now it is a temporary deployment base for the BSF (for about a dozen warships) and there are three floating docks and the repair tender PM-61. Russian specialists are also working on expansion of the port and the construction of a pier in the neighboring port of Al-Latakia. The repair base could potentially receive the designation of basing point and then Navy Base.

Ivan Petrov

02 June 2008

Cold War Stories: Guardfish Vs. K-184, Part IV

Compartment six (Reactor), Project 675 Echo II class cruise missile submarine.
(Photo: The Pilot's Blog)

Part I
Part II
Part III

K-184 gets jerked around by shore, dogged by Neptunes and Orions, averts another disaster and finds a new friend.

20 May. We have taken station in area number one. We came to periscope depth at 0830 to catch the broadcast and fix our position. Immediately, dead ahead at a range of 10 cables, I saw an American auxiliary ship heading directly for us. We filled the emergency dive tank and dove to a safe depth. Sonar didn’t hear the ship. The bathymetry was bad – generally, we don’t hear anything. Therefore every surfacing or PD was potentially dangerous due to the possibility of collision with a surface vessel.

David Minton writes: “Eight days the sub has patrolled at low speed in an area in the shape of a rectangle located about 700 miles from out from our carriers cruising along the coast of Vietnam and far outside the 200 mile range of her missiles. For now, the tracking party has tried not to lose contact with the Soviet boat….

If military conflict starts now, then the Sea of Japan will become a trap for the Pacific Ocean Fleet, like the Gulf of Finland became one for ships and submarines in 1943. The straits: La Peruse, Sangarskiy and the Korean Straits can quickly become anti-submarine barriers and right now, our likely foe most probably controls the movement of our submarines. (TR Note: I think the "Sangarskiy" Straits are actually better known as the Tartar Straits between Sakhalin Island and the Asian mainland.)

22 May. We detected an ASW P-3 Orion’s AN/APS-80, weak signal strength. We diverted course away from the aircraft.

23 May. We came to periscope depth at 0830 to catch the broadcast and get a position fix. Political information: “The Fleet Komsomol activities were held”. Not one word more. Of course, it was “very important” information for a submarine in the South China Sea. We detected an ASW P-3 Orion’s AN/APS-80, weak signal strength. We diverted course away from the aircraft.

24 May. We received instructions along with K-45 and K-7 to report our positions. We sent our lat/long at 1200. We sent the message three times because atmospheric conditions in the area were bad. From the intel summary: “Nixon is holding talks in Moscow”. We detected a weak signal strength AN/APS-20 from a P-2 Neptune ASW aircraft and diverted course away from the aircraft. The last two AN/APS-20 intercepts were analyzed and we came to the conclusion that the aircraft was conducting an ASW search.

25 May. Sometime after lunch, the engineer, K2R M.S.Bayburin reported that there was a leak of KhGCEhN-601 from the port side reactor and I made the decision to cut it off since a build up of the levels of radioactive gasses and aerosols began in compartment 6 (TR Note: if there is anybody who knows what ХГЦЭН - 601 is, please leave it in the comments section. There is only ONE reference to it on the intertubes and I am dying to know what it is). We remembered the search operation we were on in the Sea of Okhotsk from 24 September to 05 October, 1971. The boat entered the search area on 26 September, took up the search area and began to look for the “blue” submarine. On 29 September at 1230 at a depth of 80 meters there was a release of radioactive gas in the forward equipment space in the 6th (reactor) compartment. The radioactive gas and aerosol levels quickly grew in the forward equipment space to 20 times the normal allowable limit on the second and third levels of the 6th compartment. The signal and announcement of “radioactive danger” was given immediately and a special emergency zone was declared in the 5th, 6th and 7th compartments. The engineer, K2R Bayburin and the chemical defense officer, K3R G.B.Yagoshin reported the boats condition and suggested a course of action. I decided to surface and ventilate the 6th compartment to the open air. Ten minutes later we surfaced and began the ventilation. Literally two minutes later, ESM detected an AN/APS-80 and an American P-3 Orion appeared out of the clouds and began to over fly us at an altitude of 100 meters. I decided to alter course, emergency dive and clear the datum by 20 miles. By this time the situation with regards to the gas and aerosol radioactivity was more complicated: it was 300 times allowed levels on the third deck in compartment 6. In the forward equipment space it was 5000 times allowable. On the second deck, 1700 times and in the 5th and 7th compartments it was around 40 times. To leave personnel in these compartments any longer was impossible, and since they were removed from the affected compartments, I sent a message to shore detailing the deteriorating situation. We began to ventilate compartments 5, 6 and 7 to the atmosphere. Sometime by 2400 on 29 September, the levels in the 5th and 7th compartments were down to normal and in the 6th compartment they were down to just 1-2 times the allowable levels. The levels had reached 5-10 times norms by this time in the other compartments. In the 5th, 6th and 7th compartments, the level of contamination reached 100 counts/minute and we began shutting down those compartments. By 1200 on 30 September, the situation on board had stabilized: the gas and aerosol levels throughout the boat fell to normal levels. We sent a message to shore on our condition and asked for permission to return to base submerged. We received permission an hour later. Part of the crew suffered head aches, chest pains and fatigue that didn’t go away for a month. When we got back to base, no one bothered to examine us.

26 May. We came to periscope depth at 0200. I immediately saw a 10,000 ton displacement ship dead ahead, range 10 cables. Sonar didn’t hear anything. We made an emergency deep to a safe depth. The next broadcast we got a message from shore ordering us to return to base.

David Minton writes: “…world events began to take on a more peaceful tone. After long negotiations, President Nixon went to Moscow, where he held an historic meeting with General Secretary Brezhnev. During this meeting with Brezhnev on 24 May, the National Security Advisor Henry Kissinger informed Brezhnev that the US knew about the deployment of Soviet submarines and that their presence so close to the combat zone in Vietnam was a provocation and very dangerous. Two days after this standoff, the Soviet Echo II submarine turned north.

27 May. That night we received a message canceling the order to return to base. Instead they gave us an order to take up a new position in the Philippines Sea which was in the shape of a circle with a radius of 30 miles. What we were to do in that circle, they didn’t say. K-57 and K-189 also received water space in the Philippines Sea. We passed through the Bashi Strait and fixed our position visually using an island. During the broadcast, we detected a radar operating in single sweep mode bearing 172 relative. In the periscope, the horizon was clear. We couldn’t determine the parameters of the radar. I started the tracking board with the goal of identifying our pursuer during every PD excursion. On it I noted the incoming messages, the weather, visual observations and our maneuvering. It was possible that the radar was a BPS-9 belonging to a Permit-class nuclear attack boat.

To be continued....

First Look - 04 June 2008

Russian Navy Ships Are Ready to Sail for Somalia, Where Pirates Have Captured a Russian Citizen.

Russian Navy ships are ready to set off for the shores of Somalia, where pirates have captured the crew of the Dutch ship Amiya Scan, among them a Russian, in the event a political decision is taken to do so, according to Kapitan First Rank Igor’ Dygalo.

“In the event higher leadership makes the political decision to send Russian Navy ships to the shores of Somalia, the fleet is unconditionally ready to carry out the decision”, noted the Navy representative.

Dygalo added that “use of force in any case is a measure of last resort”.

Pirates operating along the Somali coast have detained the 9 man crew of the Dutch ship Amiya Scan, among them the captain and three officers are from Russia and the rest are Filipino sailors.

China Tested the Newest Ballistic Missile “Tszyuylan-2”


The former Russian Navy Chief of Staff Admiral Viktor Kravchenko considers the test of the newest submarine launched ballistic missile “Tszyuylan-2” to be a testament to the dynamic development of the naval component of the Chinese nuclear forces.

“In the last few years, China has added to the experience and has amassed enough economic potential to accelerate the development of the maritime component of its nuclear forces” noted the Admiral, commenting on the question posed by the ITAR-TASS correspondent on the test of the “Tszyuylan-2” ballistic missile for the newest project 094 nuclear submarine.

“After the new Chinese submarine is fully ready to enter service and is equipped with modern SLBMs, then it will be on of the most modern ships of its type, capable of threatening the security of all potential foes”, the Admiral says.

A Japanese newspaper with sources in the intelligence directorate in the Japanese Ministry of Defense, “Sankey” reported on the test launch of the “Tszyuylan-2” missile from the Yellow Sea
that took place on 29 May. The submerged launch took place from specially equipped Golf class submarine. The “Tszyuylan-2” (“Big Wave”) SLBM has an intercontinental range of flight. Project 094 submarines equipped with this missile will be able to hit targets in Europe and the US from its pier. The first boat of this type was launched in 2004 and is now undergoing sea trials before it is deployed to its base on the island of Hainan.

According to the press, a great base for 20 nuclear submarines, hidden from satellite view, is being built in the south of the island near the city of San’ya.



The above is a Russian TV Zvezda clip purporting to be the launch of the new missile. Despite the above Russian report noting that the launch took place from a submerged modified Golf SSB, the TV clip appears to depict a surface launch from a test barge.

First Look - 03 June 2008

The Minesweeper “Zheleznyakov” Returns to Novorossiysk After “Black Sea Harmony”

The Novorossiysk-based minesweeper “Zhelezyakov” returned to base after completing tasks in the international operation “Black Sea Harmony”. The minesweeper steamed more than 200 miles during the exercise.

According the plan of the Russian-Turkish operation, ships from Novorossiysk regularly go to sea, patrolling in a defined area…Monthly the sailors go on watch and control the situation at sea, observing the ship traffic in the area and interrogating the ship captains on their route and reason for sailing.

Black Sea Fleet ships will continue participation in this operation in the future.


The Russian Navy Will Place $4 Mil in Orders with the Kyrgyz Company “Dastan”.

The Commander in Chief of the Russian Navy, Vladimir Vysotskiy told journalists on Friday that the Russian Navy will place defense orders with the Kyrgyz enterprise “Dastan”.

He added that “orders have been placed with the enterprise for torpedoes and equipment for underwater armaments.”

Vysotskiy emphasized that, “There aren’t any combat components or explosives in the order.”

He added that “Russia is interested in the preservation of the production process in the Kyrgyz enterprise”, and didn’t exclude the possibility of the Russian side obtaining a chunk of its shares, but he underlined that “this issue must be resolved at the inter-governmental level.”

He also said that while he was in Kyrgyzstan, he visited the Russian Navy testing facility located on the shores of Lake Issyk-Kul’. He said that, “There is no place like it in the world (the test facility “IF”), and there is something to work on there. I found the conditions at the base to be satisfactory, the condition of the armament and the technical units to be good, but because of the day’s realities, the base must be modernized and developed.”

He also said that during meetings with the leadership of the Republic, the Ministry of Defense and the Kyrgyz Security Council, discussions were held about the presence of Russian military bases in Kyrgyzstan (there are three, two of which are Navy).


Inspection Results

The inspection of the work done on the repair and overhaul of the project 1143.0 ship (“Vikramaditya”, formerly the “Admiral Gorshkov”) is complete.

“We have resolved almost all technical issues during this visit”, said Vice-Admiral Dilip Deshpande, the inspection team chief and Chief of the Purchasing and Production Directorate of the Indian Joint Naval Staff.

In the ten day visit by the Indian Navy and their Russian partners – representatives of FGUP “Rosoboroneksport” and OAO (formerly FGUP) “Sevmash” – they agreed with the Indian side to inform them about additional and unaccounted for repair work, re-equipage and ship testing.

For the last six months, Russian and Indian specialists have been conducting a detailed analysis of the situation with regards to a lack of funding. “Only after we have determined the amount of work done can we begin to discuss the allocation of additional funds”, commented Deshpande. “I am happy that all technical questions have been almost resolved. Our next step – begin the financial discussions. But we need a decision about that in India. I cannot right now give an exact date for the start of the negotiations, but issues regarding the cruiser will be decided in India at all levels quickly.”

Lately the work tempo on the ship has increased. Fifteen hundred people a year work on the carrier and another 3500 work in the workshops supporting the overhaul. The General Director of Sevmash, Nikolay Kalistratov said, “But, so that this work tempo doesn’t slack, but on the contrary, that it increases, we need immediate additional financing. We have not received resources for this order since January 2007, and now we are in negotiations with the Indian side for an advance payment. As a rule, it is 20 percent of the estimated cost of the work. I hope that Vice Admiral Deshpande will deliver our position to his leadership.”

Successful resolution of all the financial issues will allow the ship to conduct sea trials in the Barents by 2011. It is planned to finish the detail work on the ship in the winter of 2012, continue trials and testing in the summer period of the same year and, according to the schedule, the ship will be ready for transfer to the Indian Navy by the end of 2012.

Pic of the Day

Border Guard Day, 28 May 2008.

(Photo: Englishrussia.com)

First Look - 02 June, 2008

“Admiral Panteleyev” Will Participate in International Exercises

The Pacific Fleet large anti-submarine ship “Admiral Panteleyev” is participating in yearly, quadrilateral maritime exercises (FRUKUS). According to the Russian Navy Press Service, the exercises will take place in August in the Sea of Japan. Ships from the navies of the United States, France and Great Britain will also participate. The goal of the operations is to train for international maritime peacekeeping operations.


The Summer Training Period Starts in the Pacific Fleet.



As in the rest of the Russian Armed Forces, the summer training period has started...Serious training awaits the sailors: large scale maneuvers, out of area deployments, training and field exercises. The fleet will take part in FRUKUS-2008, an international maritime exercise with ships from the Navies of France, the USA and Great Britain participating.



According to this video news report, it will be the most active training cycle in the Pacific Fleet in 15 years. There will be artillery firings, anti-terrorism exercises and rescue exercises. Ships will make deployments throughout the Asia-Pacific region and take part in FRUKUS-2008. Footage from FRUKUS-2007 was shown.


Ukrainian Frigate “Hetman Sagaydachiy” to Join Nato Standing Forces Mediterranean



According to the official site of the Ukrainian Ministry of Defense, the project 1135.1 frigate (Krivak class) “Hetman Sagaydachiy” has successfully met NATO certification standards and will start patrolling with the alliance in the Mediterranean Sea, participating in the anti-terrorist operation code named “Active Endeavor”. This certification is the result of joint training conducted by U130 and her Italian training partner, the frigate “Frantiere” at the NATO base in Souda Bay, Crete.


Bold Monarch-2008 Continues Off Norway



Norwegian and Russian para-rescue jumpers participate in Bold Monarch-2008, making their jumps with British parachutes that they never trained with before.